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Giants To Be Tested Without Jacobs?

It seems that the Brandon Jacobs saga continues to unfold.  Since Dan Benton posted the original news that Jacobs' injury would not impact his game time, reports are surfacing all over the place indicating that the Giants Mack Truck RB will likely sit out this week's game against Arizona.  

It is true that the MRI came back showing that there was no structural damage in Jacobs' knee, however, according to #27, he may take a seat against the Cardinals just to be on the safe side.  Jacobs shared:

"We have a stable of horses lined up and ready to go. So I could play if I wanted to and I needed to, but I don’t know if they’ll let me.”

Perhaps this is the best time for Jacobs to take this break, however.  The Cardinals have been doing well, but their defense is not one of the more elite in the league and with Derrick Ward and Ahmad Bradshaw waiting to carry the load, the Giants could run an interesting experiment.

Not too long ago I reported a rumor that the New York Giants organization was going to be faced with two, big free agents after this off-season.  Derrick Ward and Brandon Jacobs will both come to the end of their contracts with Big Blue and Jerry Reese will be forced to make a tough decision.  Keep Jacobs and drop Ward?  Keep Ward and drop Jacobs?  Keep both and trim some fat elsewhere? 

Odds are that the final decision will be one of the first two...essentially, Giants fans will probably be saying goodbye to Jacobs or Ward after the 2008 season.  As sad as it is, the Giants have a powerful and extremely capable Ahmad Bradshaw just waiting to get his shot as a 40% (more or less) RB.

This weekened's matchup against the Cardinals will give the Ward/Bradshaw duo a shot at demonstrating why they should be the tandem for next year.  While Ward is a terrific RB who did carry the Giants for a few games last year and Bradshaw can certainly do the job, I do not think the Giants will be letting go of Jacobs any time soon.  He's a RB phenomenon that defense's fear, runs through defenders without any trouble, is younger than Ward and quite simply is the Giants feature back.

If I had my wish, I would hang on to all three.  I am of the mind-set that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."  The trio of Jacobs, Ward and Bradshaw (aka...Earth, Wind and Fire) has been working for going on two years now.  While it would be great to work Bradshaw in a bit more, the current scheme is the ultimate knockout punch against almost any defense.  Even the ESPN "experts" have been calling the Giants (who usually are subject to ridiculous ridicule) "the most complete team in the NFL."  I believe this is largely due to the knockout combo that the Big Blue Running Crew brings to the field each week.  Jacobs wears them out, Ward gets them winded and Bradshaw comes in for the knockout.

The fact is that Brandon Jacobs will probably ride the pine this weekend.  If he is in any danger, it is not worth it to put him in a position where one of the most lethal RBs in the NFL could end up out for the final games of the season and potentially the post-season.  Additionally, this will allow the Giants organization some time to see where they stand with Ward and Bradshaw in charge...where they stand without a Mack truck paving the way for them.  In all reality, this may be Ward's last chance to prove his case that he is the RB the Giants need to pay up the big bucks for this off-season.

As I said, I want to keep all three of them...but then again, perhaps that's why I don't get paid the bucks.  I just hope the Giants bring the same pain to the Cardinals that they would have if Jacobs were in the game.  Time will tell...

Comments

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KD said:

Can I get an ***UPDATE UP TOP*** ???

Thanks.

KD

November 18, 2008 8:27 PM
 

fanfor55years said:

Ummm, should we just repost what we wrote many hours ago? Nah. But anyone who wants my opinion on the running back situation can look back at the previous post. Sit Jacobs, suit up Ware. And there's no way the Giants can keep Jacobs and Ward next season. One has to go because each can be a feature back on many teams in the NFL. Ward won't take backup money and he'll be offered a lot more (unless he gets injured).

KD, look at my last post on the earlier thread. I didn't mean to spook you on the trade. You may be okay. And I'm really sorry you and j charles have been disillusioned about Ms. Maddow, but it's true.

November 18, 2008 8:33 PM
 

KD said:

FF90210 - haha, I am confident in my trade. I have a good track record. This administration is the wildcard.

I am SHOCKED Ms. Maddow is a Ms...I thought that was a dude until 10 mins ago...

November 18, 2008 8:39 PM
 

DEMO3356 said:

Maddow is more of a man than Olberman...

November 18, 2008 9:30 PM
 

12dan.S. said:

I want to see Ware get a chance to play and I don't want BJ to get hurt any worse because we need him for the playoffs and the stretch at the end of the year. It isn't worth it to make him play this week. I would like to know if Ware can step up next year and take over a spot in the 3 man rotation.

In other news, watching Malik Rose play basketball gives me hope that I can make it to the NBA someday.

November 18, 2008 9:31 PM
 

DEMO3356 said:

FF57yrs- I agree that Jacobs should sit and Ware should play. As I posted on 2 threads ago, Ware like Jacobs and Ward is not under contract next year. It is time to " Kick the Tires" and see what we have in him. Especially since Reuben and his $1,250,000 Salary nest year will and should be sent packing. That leaves only Bradshaw guarenteed to be back next year

November 18, 2008 9:34 PM
 

DEMO3356 said:

12 dan S- Rose maeks Greg Kite look athletic

November 18, 2008 9:37 PM
 

Nosh said:

Enjoy Jacobs for this year because he's gone after that. You only get 1 chance in your career to cash in on free agency in the NFL. Jacobs, with the way he's playing will probably get Turner dollars. Reese probably won't give him that and BJ would be a fool to turn down that big money.

Ward may be back if his $$$$ is reasonable. But if not than I expect to see Ware, Bradshaw and either a rookie or a free agent.

November 18, 2008 9:41 PM
 

Krow said:

Yeah... if true this is either BJ's ticket to a big payday... or a bus ride out of town.

November 18, 2008 9:49 PM
 

TroyThorne said:

Even if Jacobs sits (which I think a lot of you are taking too lightly) we probably won't see a lot of Ware. He's buried 4 deep on the depth chart, probably hasn't seen many snaps in practice, and has had 0 game time experience. Ward and Bradshaw would be more than enough to carry the load.

I do, however, think Ware can be an effective back. I just don't think we see much, if any, of him this Sunday.

November 18, 2008 10:05 PM
 

12dan.S. said:

I was just looking over the free agents for this off seson and noticed a few interesting ones. Do you think the Giants will look into Haynesworth? He would make this d-line completely unstoppable.

Suggs is also a free agent but he probably wouldn't fit our system since he is more of a 3-4 LB or DE then a 4-3 LB. He would probably get too much money somewhere else anyways but he would be a great weapon to add to a young, athletic defense.

Asomugha is a free agent too. I know we wouldn't get him if we kept Webster but he is an option. He locks down his side of the field for the whole game, every game. That would really help our pass rush and our safeties could focus on the running game and tight ends more.  Also, if Webster doesn't resign then do you think we will look for a replacement through free agency? Dunta Robinson is decent and Chris Gamble is going to be a free agent as well. He is a young playmaker that wouldn't be a bad option if Webster gets crazy money from the Raiders.

November 18, 2008 10:05 PM
 

Krow said:

12... we've passed on a lot more attractive FAs in the past.  I don't see us getting any of the ones you mentioned.  We won't pay that sort of money.  In fact I expect us to get a net loss when it comes to FAs.

November 18, 2008 10:11 PM
 

shockyourface said:

Our running game will be fine...the bigger issue today is that 16 Redskins are leading at their position in on-line Pro Bowl voting and that needs to change.

November 18, 2008 10:15 PM
 

12dan.S. said:

shockyourface- The fans only count as 1/3 of the vote and the coaches/players will not vote for 16 Redskins. I would actually like to see 16 Redskins start in the probowl though, the NFC could just wear Washington uniforms and they could run Zorn's playbook. The AFC would whoop their A$$.

November 18, 2008 10:23 PM
 

STU H. said:

Don't bet on Ware suiting up. They seem to love Droughns and he plays  on the special teams. If they do suit up Ware I don't know how many chances he will get. He deserves a shot after the way he played in the pre-season. He was the best back on the team before the real action started.

I think Hixson should get more playing time.

Whats the odds on Carney being activated for this game?

November 18, 2008 10:30 PM
 

gmenking said:

The fan voting needs to go, period! For the most part it's a complete joke. 16 redskins leading the fan vote?? thank goodness fans only count for 1/3 of the vote. It's ridiculous.

November 18, 2008 10:32 PM
 

Nosh said:

12-

I would love Asomugha, from everything I've read on him he is the best corner in the league. But that means I'm sure he'll be prised out of our range.

However if the rumors are true that there won't be a cap in 2010 then maybe we can somehow work something out. I doubt it though.

November 18, 2008 10:45 PM
 

Nosh said:

*priced

November 18, 2008 10:45 PM
 

TroyThorne said:

12dan - In short: hell no. Haynesworth is the best DT in the league and Asomugha is the best CB in the league. Both those guys will cost an arm, a leg, and a sh!tload of money. Also, Davis has said he's going to franchise Asomugha this offseason so there's also that. Reese doesn't bring in high-priced, big named FAs and I don't see that changing.

Nosh - If the NFL goes uncapped, I'm going to flip out. It's bad enough football has taken a step back with the ridiculous rules and horrible officiating. Going uncapped would be awful especially for us Giants fans considering our owners aren't near billionaires that own the team "for fun" like say, Danny Snyder and Jerry Jones. I'd go as far as saying that if the league went uncapped, we'd have even LESS of a chance to land those guys, as other owners would throw an absolutely astronomical amount of money at them.

November 18, 2008 11:08 PM
 

Jared said:

Well, I think after several weeks of making the same prediction, we can now finally say it will be this Sunday that Plaxico Burress has a big game.  What else could we expect  as a result of the wise decision to sit star Jacobs for the week.  I like the yearn for a glimpse of Ware. I sense some folks here think he will be the Ryan Grant that did not escape the organization. And what of R. Droughns ? Shouldn't he be given the chance to carry the ball a few times ?   The more that either Ward and Bradshaw play, the greater the contract they will be able to secure .  Which teams will be lined up for one of them ?  Seattle needs a decent RB, so do Arizona, New England,  and Tampa Bay.

November 18, 2008 11:14 PM
 

GiantBuzz said:

Sit Ware and give Bradshaw 50% at least... I am so confident I am going to spot start him this week in Fantasy.....Give the man the rock and watch him GALLOP all over the field.

November 19, 2008 12:34 AM
 

Nosh said:

Troy-

Ohh I agree. I def don't want to see it go uncapped. All I know is that as of right now the NFL is heading into a pretty nasty labor dispute at the end of the 2009 season, and as of now the 2010 season does not have a salary cap.

Now hopefully they'll get this straightened out before then but I'm just saying it is a def possibility, which for some reason no sports writers are talking about. Peter King is the only person I've heard mention it.

November 19, 2008 1:01 AM
 

csherm91 said:

I personally think Bradshaw is a little overrated so far. He needs more of an opportunity to show his stuff first before I'm a complete believer. I sure hope we keep Jacobs this offseason.

November 19, 2008 1:09 AM
 

j charles said:

damn. folks be hatin on racheal an eli. damn.

November 19, 2008 1:36 AM
 

MentalHockey said:

i want to see ware in action

November 19, 2008 1:38 AM
 

G-men are great said:

If I was Jerry Reese I would resign both Jacobs and Ward and try to trade Bradshaw for a 2nd rounder and a 5th. Think about it. We could still have the 3 headed monster with Ware taking Bradshaws spot. Bradshaw has to do more time after the season and after he gets a big payday you don't know what he would turn into off the field.

Plus Bradshaw is a great homerun threat at the end of games when he is 100 percent fresh and defenses have been tackling Jacobs and Ward all day. I don't think he would as big as a threat early in games and he hasn't proven he can carry it 20 times a game.

I was wondering why no one has talked about this option, Bradshaw will be featured a lot especially late in the year so that should increase his value. I would be shocked if Reese isn't thinking about this option.

One last point about Bradshaw, when he doesn't break the big one he usually doesn't get anything, which really doesn't fit our smashmouth controll the clock offense. I know we all love this kid but the 2 best rb for our team are BJ and Ward. I reallllly hope we can keep both and get great value out of this 7th rounder who will help us win 2 superbowls lol

November 19, 2008 1:45 AM
 

KD said:

Dude, Jacobs stays, Ward is gone and Bradshaw isn't going anywhere.

November 19, 2008 2:08 AM
 

Nosh said:

Jacobs is outta here as fast as you can say "15 Million guaranteed".

November 19, 2008 2:47 AM
 

KD said:

Nosh, if the Giants kept Tiki, they will keep Jacobs.

I hate Wednesdays...I start work in one minute.

November 19, 2008 2:59 AM
 

KD said:

Jessica Simpson should go easy on the collagen

To whoever convinced Jessica Simpson all men want to secretly bang Daisy Duck, hardy har har, ***.

thesuperficial.com/.../jessica_simpson_needs_to_lay_o.php

November 19, 2008 3:12 AM
 

Nosh said:

KD-

I've been working since 6PM.

Enjoy this beautiful 25 degree day. In November!!!!

November 19, 2008 3:22 AM
 

KD said:

Nosh, Once a week I pull the Asian shift. Sucks because unless there's a catastrophy, all I do is make reassuring calls.

I get to work from home and knock off at Noon, but it isn't worth it.

November 19, 2008 3:31 AM
 

GIANTT said:

KD - yeah I used to work the 4-12 shift to catch Europe when it opened , but in those days , there was no internet and we had to work from the office downtown .-It sucked because there was no place open for coffee for a couple of hours- You got out at 12 and you thought -GREAT , I can take a LOOOONG  3 martinis to start lunch - get home and have to get up again to start work - That didnt last long -It was a race to see which would kill me first , my wife or my liver. And yeah , most of what I did was calimg down nervous customers

November 19, 2008 7:49 AM
 

GIANTT said:

thats CALMING down - one day I will

so KD sama , how do you see this market this morning ?

November 19, 2008 7:51 AM
 

Jared said:

Jacobs =  Will be offered 4 years for 25-30 million.  He stays

Ward =     Will be offered 4 years for 12-15 million.  He goes

Webster =  will be offered 4 years for 15-20 million. He goes.

Toomer =   will be offered 1 year for 2 million.   Might return to the west coast for 2 years for 4-5 million.

Feagles =  Retirement

November 19, 2008 9:28 AM
 

GIANTT said:

A mea culpa - I have complained in the past about Jacobs running style -battering ram , straight ahead brute force- bottom line he left a lot of yards on the playing field and left himself open to injury despite his size.

I think last weeks game , and  that first long run , showed where previoulsy ,he would have just tried to

get ahead and through the line by brute force , maybe picking up a yard or two now hes changed a little .

By bouncing  to his left , on his own , he found the crease and was fast enough to accelerate and get a long run which is something I didnt think he was capable of.

In fact , I posted once or twice on just about the same run during the SB where he DIDNT make the adjustment and went down for a couple of yards only .

My prediction post for last weeks game said ,

Jacobs right for a couple , then jacobs left for a couple

and then Eli has to pass - that was the old BJ ,

Last Sunday was new BJ , make adjustment , pick up a lot of yards -take Eli out of tough 3rd down situation

Also I see Jacobs , in Newsday I think , sounds like he wants to stay

November 19, 2008 9:28 AM
 

ThatsMyQuarterback said:

Heres that Jacobs newsday article right here, a little reassuring...

www.newsday.com/.../ny-spgchalk195933356nov19,0,7606925.story

November 19, 2008 9:46 AM
 

The Original G Man said:

TMQB ... I call it more than a little reassuring.

November 19, 2008 9:59 AM
 

DEMO3356 said:

Jared- Webster is not going anywhere. He will be JR's top priority. A shut down Corner is hard to find in this league and you dont let them go. RB's are a dime a dozen and with our offensive line we can plug in anyone and be succesful.That said I see Cwebb extended before the end of the season and Jacobs signed as long as he doesnt ask for Tomlinson / Alexander / LJ type of money

November 19, 2008 9:59 AM
 

ThatsMyQuarterback said:

I am also going to go out on a limb and say that Bradshaw and MAYBE Ward will not be as effective right away if Jacobs is not in the game to wear the defense down.

November 19, 2008 10:01 AM
 

DEMO3356 said:

Something everyone needs to keep in mind is, the fact that The NYG do not pursue  high priced free agents is soo that they have enough $$ to keep their own stars. I cant remember a star player leaving the Giants due to $$$. Dont give me guys like Gibril Wilson or Joe jurvicious either. I'm talking guys like Srahan, Tiki, OSI, Tuck, Sehorn, and the current Offensive line. Have faith in JR

November 19, 2008 10:03 AM
 

DEMO3356 said:

I know I just woke up and am on My first cup of Coffee, but did I really just see someone upthread say JR should Trade Bradshaw?    really?

November 19, 2008 10:06 AM
 

DEMO3356 said:

TMQ- you are probably right, without the battering ram softening them up it may be a little harder for W&F to get going. I think Eli should loosen them up with some big hitters to Plax and hixon to bring the safeties back.That will give them some room to work

November 19, 2008 10:09 AM
 

The Original G Man said:

I won't be surprised if the running game doesn't miss a bit w/o Jacobs this Sunday.  Ward was very impressive last year when Jacobs went down.  And don't forget, Ward is playing for a contract. This game is his big audition to the NFL GM's.  I predict he comes through big time.

November 19, 2008 10:23 AM
 

ThatsMyQuarterback said:

Also, In my opinion this game against the Cardinals is one of two games left for the GMen that they can "afford" to lose.   The last game of the season against Minnesota is the other.  My reasoning:

It looks like we are in a battle with Carolina for home field advantage, and if we beat them, that should take care of it right there.

Also we cant breathe life into a divisional foe by allowing them to beat us.  Especially Dallas.

Truthfully, I wouldnt mind seeing the Giants drop one of the two I listed above, I hate to see a team "peak" at the wrong time and set themselves up for a let down in the post season.  A loss may/will keep this team on their toes and give them a little adversity to ralley around which Coughlin has them do so well.

November 19, 2008 10:23 AM
 

ThatsMyQuarterback said:

OGM, thats why I said Bradshaw would struggle and MAYBE Ward struggles... I think Ward is a hell of a runner and as Ive said a million times on here, I think he is a better runner than Bradshaw, he should be fine.  But I think Bradshaw will get off to a slower start without Jacobs in there.

Of course this could all be pointless chatter if Jacobs ends  up getting the nod.

November 19, 2008 10:26 AM
 

The Original G Man said:

Derrick Ward over the last 2 seasons:

18 gp

225 carries

1133 yds

5.0 yd/carry

If you prorate his stats over a 300 carry season, that translates to over 1500 rushing yards.

November 19, 2008 10:29 AM
 

KD said:

Giantt

No buyers

November 19, 2008 10:35 AM
 

GIANTT said:

KD -yeah same in the real estate market

November 19, 2008 10:44 AM
 

KD said:

Nov. 17 (Bloomberg) -- Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb's misunderstanding of the National Football League's overtime rules is ``indefensible'' and may have hurt his team's playoff chances, former NFL running back Tiki Barber said.

www.bloomberg.com/.../news

November 19, 2008 10:57 AM
 

fanfor55years said:

Anyone who thinks that the Giants are going to trade Bradshaw is absolutely nuts. He's 23, with very little wear, and shows signs that he could be "Tiki Barber-like" but with more power. He is also a Special Teams stud.

Ward is going to be 30.

Jacobs is going to be re-signed because he has become a fundamental part of the Giants' winning equation but knows he needs a superior offensive line to get him past the first level of defenders so will want to remain a Giant. He'll get paid well, but not at the top of the market because he is not a top-of-the-market back on the wrong team. Ward can get substantial dollars as a starter for a team that has a real need for a runner who can also act as a receiver, and he will definitely start to lose carries to Bradshaw next season if he stayed in New York.

This isn't rocket science. Jacobs stays. Ward goes. Bradshaw and Ware compete for playing time and perhaps a late-round pick is brought in too for competition's sake.

Unless Corey Webster is a pig, and I don't think he will be since he should be very grateful that the Giants stuck with him when he didn't look like he could cover his grandma, he will be a Giant for a long time. If he gets stupid then anything could happen.

Here's a wild idea (that I do NOT think will actually happen). The Raiders need lots of players. The Giants have extra draft choices. If Webster's agent demands money even close to what Asomugha would cost, and the Giants don't think Thomas is ready to step in by 2009 and take over the second cornerback spot (and don't have a guy targeted in this draft who they think could be a stud there by 2011),  trade Webster and two picks (probably the later 2nd round pick and a 4th round pick) to Oakland for Asomugha.

The more likely approach would be let Webster go, draft a successor, and move Thomas into the spot in 2009 while retaining Madison. As I said a few days ago, I think cornerbacks are currently overrated in the NFL and safeties are underrated in regard to salaries and importance to the team. If Webster is unreasonable and I were Reese I would definitely use my first pick in the draft on one of the terrific safeties to put out there next to Phillips and know that I had cemented my defensive backfield for years, even without a really strong corner paired with Ross. And I also happen to think that Thomas will be a strong cornerback. Remember, that pick was made largely because the Giants couldn't be sure what they were going to get from Webster this season and needed someone they thought could take over that #2 spot on the depth chart by next season. It would not be a tragedy if that's what happens.

November 19, 2008 11:03 AM
 

wr45171 said:

correction ward will be 30 in about another 2 years...he was born Aug 30 of 1980.

November 19, 2008 11:15 AM
 

ThatsMyQuarterback said:

what do you guys see happening with Toomer after this year?

November 19, 2008 11:15 AM
 

wr45171 said:

I know the article was posted upthread...but this little quote from BJ just made me shine....lets just hope thats the case when he has "25 Mil guaranteed" whispered in his ear.

"No question about it, this is where I want to be," he said. "If they come up with something fair, this is where I'll be. I'm not really trying to break the bank like some other people. I just want what's fair."

that sure sounds good.

November 19, 2008 11:18 AM
 

wr45171 said:

I think when the Gmen win it all again...Toomer will pull a Strahan and walk away which would be the greatest way to go out...."John Elway Style"

November 19, 2008 11:20 AM
 

KD said:

30 years after 'The Fumble'

When it happened, John Mara was sitting in the television broadcast booth, cleaning up some papers and preparing to head down to the locker room after what appeared to be a routine win over the Eagles. He could not believe what he was seeing as the most calamitous play in Giants' history unfolded on the field below.

www.newsday.com/.../ny-spglaub1119,0,4275650.column

November 19, 2008 11:20 AM
 

wr45171 said:

I think if he leaves like that everyone would agree it was a great way to end his career...instead of trying to play elsewhere for money or getting shuffled back in the depth chart....Thanks Amani

November 19, 2008 11:22 AM
 

Dan Murphy said:

Bradshaw isn't going anywhere.  One of the best value selections in Giant's history is staying put.

November 19, 2008 11:22 AM
 

wr45171 said:

can we stop that nonsense....Bradshaw stays in blue folks.

November 19, 2008 11:26 AM
 

DEMO3356 said:

I agree that a second ring would be the perfect way for amani to go out. He has aid in the past though (last year) that he would like to play 5 more years.I think he is only 33-34

November 19, 2008 11:27 AM
 

DEMO3356 said:

Murph- I almsot spit coffee all over my lap top when I saw that trade Bradshaw crap

November 19, 2008 11:29 AM
 

fanfor55years said:

wr45171, thanks for the correction. So he'll be 29 next season and will be 30 prior to the 2010 season. He probably has 2-3 good years left in him, and I wish him well. His future won't be with the Giants unless Jacobs can't be retained.

Toomer is not going to retire. He keeps himself in great condition and will probably stop only when no one will sign him. I think there's still a place for him on this team in 2009, although he'll have to take a lesser role. If I were Reese I'd want him back if he can be signed at a reasonable price.

November 19, 2008 11:29 AM
 

wr45171 said:

Demo it would be great if we were talking about amani of 5 or 6 years ago...I just dont think that he will be able to keep a spot with our depth at WR.  I really hope we send him out the right way this year.  Possible coach?

November 19, 2008 11:31 AM
 

KD said:

November 19, 2008 11:33 AM
 

wr45171 said:

np ff55yr....I think ward has lots of gas in the tank even though he is approaching 30...  as for amani he is one of my favorite alltime giants...but this is a business and the Giants have to keep up...I hope he doesnt hang on too long and I want him to end his career in NY Blue..

November 19, 2008 11:34 AM
 

DEMO3356 said:

Farve after the Pats Game-watch the last 20 seconds

www.youtube.com/watch

November 19, 2008 11:37 AM
 

wr45171 said:

hahaha i just watched that on PFT...

November 19, 2008 11:42 AM
 

fanfor55years said:

wr45171, wouldn't you love to have Amani as the #4 or #5 guy on the WR depth chart, and make a point of having him come in occasionally to relieve Hixon and/or Smith? I would love that security blanket, and would also love to have him tutoring Hixon, Smith and Manningham as they all become critical players on the team.

November 19, 2008 11:42 AM