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It May Be Too Early to Crucify Plaxico Burress

I think Eric Kennedy of Big Blue Interactive put it best when he said "Thank God the Giants won it all last year because had they not, and the Giants were 11-1 right now with this Plaxico [Burress] mess going on, I would really think the Gods were out to get us as Giants fans. The more this whole thing sinks in, the more sickened I feel about it."

It's amazing how things can change in the blink of an eye. One mistake - one foolish mistake - now has Burress facing up to 15-years in prison and possibly the end of his NFL career.

Sure, various winds are still swirling and this whole mess is far from settled, but it does not look good for one of the Super Bowl XLII heroes. And honestly, that's depressing as a Giants' fan.

What Burress did was as boneheaded as it gets and he deserves some sort of punishment, but I don't think throwing the book at him, as the "honorable" Mayor Michael Bloomberg suggested, is the answer.

"If we don't prosecute [him] to the fullest extent of the law, I don't know who on Earth we would," Bloomberg said. "It makes a sham, a mockery of the law. And it's pretty hard to argue the guy didn't have a gun and that it wasn't loaded. You've got bullet holes in and out to show that it was there."

Less than a week ago, Burress' teammate Steve Smith was robbed at gunpoint. Less than a year ago, his former teammate Gibril Wilson was also robbed at gunpoint. And within the last year and a half, we've seen two other NFL athletes murdered -- Sean Taylor and Darrent Williams - while a third, Richard Collier, will be paralyzed for the rest of his life.

Say what you want about Burress' attitude problem and Giants-related incidents, but how can anyone justify punishing him to the fullest extent of the law when he was merely taking an action to protect himself.

I know, I know ... we're going to hear all about how he had time to get a pistol permit and how he could have killed someone else, but he didn't. He made the mistake of not having a permit and that's a big no-no, but does that mean he had no legitimate right to protect himself?

Again, Burress should be punished ... I cannot possibly express that enough. But sending him to prison for doing nothing more than injuring himself is preposterous.

These athletes do little more than any other party-goers, but are constantly faced with harsher dangers just because of who they are and what they do. And are they given additional protection? Do police agencies make sure they're constantly protected? Does the NFL offer them personal bodyguards?

The answer is no ... these athletes are left to fend for themselves, and then when they do, they're criticized and ridiculed.

Society has created messes like these, and it's the murderers and violent thieves that should be made an example of ... not the athletes. A perfect example would be Venjah Hunte, one of the accused murderers in the Sean Taylor case.

Hunte agreed to a plea-deal and is currently facing 29-years in prison ... for murder. Meanwhile, Burress is looking at up to 15-years in prison (only 14-year less) for what? Wounding himself accidentally at a nightclub.

These athletes are sitting ducks, who are systematically being picked off, and now we're going to punish them for attempting to protect themselves ... brilliant.

Meanwhile, sick people like Adam Jones and Michael Vick constantly get (or will get) second, third and fourth chances.

And don't even get me started on Ray Lewis or O.J. Simpson ...

Bottom line: All of these punishments should be consistent. It's unfair to let an athlete off simply because he's an athlete, and it's unfair to make an example of an athlete simply because they're in the public's eye.

If an athlete protecting himself is really that much of a concern, then some agency should step up and make sure they're not going to be murdered simply for trying to live their lives.

Allowing Vick to slaughter dogs in horror movie-like fashion, only to serve a minimum amount of time does not really set an example. Nor does allowing Adam "Pacman" Jones to basically do whatever he wants with no consequences.

As for Burress, he should be in some trouble, but seeing more prison time than Vick, Jones, Lewis and Simpson combined doesn't seem very justified or acceptable, in my humble opinion.

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The Original G Man said:

Anyone going to check out the new Holiday movie about Plax?

img201.imageshack.us/.../aplaxmasstoryyg9.png

December 2, 2008 10:56 AM
 

Dan Benton said:

Please try to keep this away from politics as much as possible. I know that may be difficult given the nature of the subject, but try to keep it was close to the Burress story and football as possible.

And before I get slammed, be sure to read the entire piece to understand where i am going with it.

December 2, 2008 10:56 AM
 

fanfor55years said:

Dan, well said. I'm reposting this from the previous thread. I don't consider it political. My previous post there might be viewed as somewhat political, but this whole thing goes way beyond football. It is exposing myriad hypocrises that infect our entire society but seem at this point to be particularly embedded in in the person of Little Mike (I have previously designated Danny Snyder as "Little Danny" as I imagine him in short pants while calling for his mommy when he doesn't get his way, but given my current feelings about Bloomberg and his "challenged" stature, I believe "Little Mike" is now an appropriate appelation for this mean-spirited Napoleon whose ego is unbounded).

fanfor55years said:

Jim, good point. I'd like to think I would have the exact same reaction. Those guys may not be my favorite athletes, but they are not thugs and bad guys.

Don't get me wrong. I am in favor of strong gun laws, and I think Plax should pay a severe price for what he did. In fact, I am in favor of severe sentences when a serious felony is committed and the perpetrator carried a gun even if it wasn't used in the commission of the crime (because the carrying of the gun means that a person who has defined himself as a criminal by the commission of that crime MIGHT have intended to use a gun if necessary).

But this is a case where the alleged criminal committed no criminal act except for the carrying of a gun without a permit, and the clearly accidental discharge of that gun (with no one hurt). The charged "perpetrator" is a well-known athlete who certainly appears not to be a danger to society and would seem to be someone who, with appropriate treatment, counseling, and monitoring would reasonably be expected to never engage in the same behavior again. And his commission of this crime would allow the City of New York to allow him to plead down to a lesser charge; suspend a sentence; put him on probation that, if violated, could result in a jail sentence; extract a big fine; and require significant community service for a number of years acting as a spokesman for the NYC weapons laws and contributing real time and money to a youth football program intended to get kids in tough neighborhoods into the game and the tutoring and academic and life counseling that would be associated with that program.

By which approach is justice best served? I'm not really sure that the answer should depend upon political orientation. I think society's interests are best served by making use of this fool's talents rather than by locking him away.

I didn't want to get into deep political discussions here on Giants101, but I have been astonished by what appears to me to be a general unwillingness to take a considered view of this situation and really think about the implications of what is going on. This is way, way, way, beyond football at this point.

Whatever happens in this situation, the lasting impression I will keep is Bloomberg practically sneering as he condemns this kid and says throw the book at him before knowing all the facts just a few weeks after saying people should wait to hear the facts when a cop kills a man who was swinging a freaking chair at him.

December 2, 2008 10:54 AM  

December 2, 2008 11:09 AM
 

ThatsMyQuarterback said:

reposted from last thread:

Jim, the legal system should not start getting into hypotheticals and "what ifs"  He is charged with carrying an illegal weapon, not for the possibility of hurting someone else.  

There are two counts, the first is a fire arm with intent to use (which will likely be thrown out once the evidence is given)  The second is simply possesion of an illegal firearm.  He will be found guilty of that and nothing more.

I hate when these "what ifs" and hypotheticals start getting tossed around.  Us young guys have a saying "If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle"  There is no reason to start saying stuff like "what happened if the bullet went through the floor and shot someone downstairs" or "what if the bullet bounced off the wall and into an innocent bystander" etc.  It luckily didnt happen, so he obvioiusly wont be in trouble for it.

December 2, 2008 11:11 AM
 

fanfor55years said:

Reposting this because I would actually like to see reactions to my contention that the Giants would still be okay without AP (even though I am convinced that should not be the case, you never know with Goodell).

fanfor55years said:

If the various people involved in this incident (cops, DA, Mayor's Office) charge Pierce with anything then they're trying to make a reputation on the carcass of an innocent man.

AP panicked, as would many others in the same circumstances. It appears he did absolutely nothing wrong, has cooperated fully in the investigation of the incident, and unless someone somewhere in the criminal justice/political chain has a personal problem with something he will, at most, be charged with a misdemeanor and get a fine. And if Goodell suspends him he's an a-hole. He has allowed players who have done things a hundred times worse get on the field, so a suspension would only be for purposes of courting favor with Bloomberg or based upon some other agenda that I prefer not to consider.

Let me point out, though, that even if AP were to be suspended for a game or two, I would not expect that to derail this team. They'd go with Blackburn at MIKE and Kehl and Wilkinson at WILL and would hardly miss a beat. Pierce is a great defensive quarterback, and he has played really well this season, but they can stop the run with Blackburn and one of those other guys in there and the passes to the tight ends have been largely covered by the safeties this season with AP still having some trouble getting back deep in the center zone.

So Pierce should not face any punishment, but as long as he isn't hit with the kind of suspension that Goodell knows would be immediately challenged by both the Giants and the NFLPA, the Giants will be okay.

And as usual, the press covers itself in crap. It isn't enough to try to destroy a young man who has committed some obvious errors and may have to pay a big, big price for his stupidity and sense that rules don't apply to him. No, they have to also go after Pierce for the possible titillation of their readers and, even more revolting IMO, drag Bradshaw into this when the more glare they can shine on a kid who apparently did nothing wrong (is it bad judgment for a young player to go to a perfectly safe nightclub with the Captain of his team and one of the most respected guys in the locker room?) the more harm they can do him with Goodell and the authorities in Virginia.

You could write a terrific novel based on this situation. The depths of human cupidity and the dark nature of a lot of people's souls are on display for our enjoyment as we watch and make our snide comments while a troubled, very talented, young man who is not a criminal is probably going to pay a severe price for his stupid behavior so the grotesques who deem themselves the keepers of society can work out their own personal psycho-dramas and power trips.

Plaxico Burress is a fool. He's a spoiled child who took his blessings for granted. He is a pampered jerk who thought he didn't need to follow anyone's rules. He endangered people around him. He is no model for anyone to follow. But he is also a tragic figure caught in a spider's web of people's ambitions and desire to make an example of him for no particularly good reason. He deserves sympathy more than contempt.

If I were his employer he would be treated a lot better than what the reporters are claiming will be the way he gets treated by the Giants. But I suspect they don't know what they're talking about. I will be disappointed if the Giants don't find a way to help him (starting with allowing him to collect that last $1MM he's owed for his signing bonus so he can afford Brafman and a shrink) and show him a path back to the NFL.

And before I ask this question, let me make it clear that I am a 61-year-old caucasian, a member of "the Establishment", who has never been in trouble with the law (at least not since the FBI was tracking me when I was a student radical back in the Vietnam War era and being an enemy of Nixon was a mark of distinction) and wouldn't know what to do with a .40 caliber gun if I saw one.

How would all of you, and Mike Bloomberg, and the cops, and the DA, be reacting if it had been Eli Manning who shot himself in the leg? No, I'm not talking racism, at least the overt kind. But I am talking stereotypes and the kind of psychological constructs that we all have in our heads. But would Bloomberg have been up on his soapbox practically convicting this guy yesterday if that had been Eli, or Brett Favre (a more likely possessor of a hand-gun who might actually carry one around for protection in the city where someone shot John Lennon)? Would most of you, and all of the press, be so sure that the Giants would cut all ties with the player? Think about it. Think hard.

December 2, 2008 10:09 AM

December 2, 2008 11:17 AM
 

Samardzija said:

I just love the hypocrisy of Major Bloomberg. Black athletes break the law=Slam the door

White politicians break the law=Sweep it under the rug.

Not trying to get racist and I hope the debate doesn't turn that way, but it is what it is.

December 2, 2008 11:20 AM
 

Dan Benton said:

Guys - I'm with you on the hypothetical's.

What if this, what if that.

My reply earlier today when someone said "what if he hurt someone" was (as extreme as it may be) "what if a some insane person came in firing an AK47 and Plax had shot him dead?"

Bottom line: Plax should see punishment for not having a permit and it shouldn't be any more than Lewis, Pacman, Simpson or Vick.

December 2, 2008 11:21 AM
 

Terrence T said:

Dan...OJ is innocent! lol. anyway you make some very good points. the whole thing is very dishearting! love the comparison you made with adam jones. the man does whatever he wants and yet nothing gets done. plax carries a gun which is a no no in a public place and he should be punished and he shot himself by accident. ok...why 3yrs in prison for that? didnt pac man fire his gun in Las Vegas? im not remembering. and whatever happened to the good boy marvin harrison thing? its a lil weird but plax shouldnt get time in jail for that. i do believe he will be suspended for the rest of the season though....i dont know. i try to forget about it cuz its just makes me sick! why this....why now! very upset about the whole thing.

also another good point bout Ray Lewis...he literally got away with murder! now hes the beloved MLB in the league...i love the guy but come on. the whole system is messed up.

December 2, 2008 11:22 AM
 

rich said:

why is that we never hear of nfl athletes getting robbed at gunpoint or shot when they're out with  their children at the movies,  or maybe at a restaurant with their wife?

maybe these nfl players should use just a small  portion of their brains and not put themselves in harms way by  hanging out at shady places with  shady individuals.

this whole "protecting themselves" argument doesnt hold much water with me.

as far as the jail time situation  goes...i do agree to an extent. i dont know if plax has any criminal  priors. assuming he doesnt, 3.5 years is a bit much.

December 2, 2008 11:25 AM
 

Dan Benton said:

TT - Forgot about Harrison! Forgot about Tank Johnson as well.

Should have added both of them.

December 2, 2008 11:25 AM
 

fanfor55years said:

One, last, political comment. As many of you know, I have been pretty good at predicting football outcomes. Well, in thinking about this whole situation with Plax I am going to say that I believe that Bloomberg may have just screwed the pooch and is now a lot less likely to get re-elected.

The people around the city will know that Little Mike just treated a black celebrity like a hardened criminal for committing an act that was clearly accidental not long after he treated a rookie cop who killed a mentally-disturbed fellow who was swinging a chair as an object of sympathy. Little Mike just lost a nice percentage of the minority vote in the City. I think it may well be enough to overcome what will be his attempt to purchase re-election by buying off neighborhoods with contributions from his foundation.

Now THAT would be justice served.

December 2, 2008 11:26 AM
 

Mike V said:

Nicely said Dan.  I completely forgot about Gibril getting robbed.  Also, even though it wasn't under Goodell - don't forget about Leonard Little.

FF55 - I hope to hell you are right about Bloomberg.  My brother said the same thing yesterday.

Rich - that's not fair at all.  Read the newest ESPN Magazine issue.  There is a whole feature that interviews about 8 NFL players and the security measures they take.  Last year (I believe), invaders broke into Dunta Robinson's house while he was home, with his family, tied him up, robbed him, and told him that since he was a good player, they would let him live.

December 2, 2008 11:32 AM
 

Terrence T said:

yup Dan...the only one who lost it all and yet was ruled innocent was OJ...he lost it all but then again that is something to talk about at another time....

how long was tank suspended for? 4 games? and harrison wasnt even suspended or fined if i remember correctly! it was as if that whole thing was swept under the rug. again im for plax gettin repramanded but when they are talkin prison...up to 15 yrs! i mean come  on. thats just crazy. like i always say IF is the biggest 2 letter word and the what ifs are just crazy...what if Bush never served in office...what if scott norword made the kick in the super bowl against the giants....what if the knicks could actually beat Michael Jordans,(who was the greatest player ever to lace em up!) bulls.... you can really make yourself go crazy with the what if talks

December 2, 2008 11:34 AM
 

Jim Stoll said:

The answer is at once simple and impoossible:  outlaw guns entirely so people like you me and Plax can never have them, then really hammer the bad guys.

Mike Force, are you with me bros?

December 2, 2008 11:35 AM
 

rich said:

mike, im not saying that crimes are NEVER comitted against professional  athletes just because they're professional athletes. im saying that i see a LOT of situations where guys put themselves in totally assinine situations just for the sake of having a good time.

and not to start a whole different debate...but try googling nfl/nba players and gangs. there's a reason  why certain players need extra protection.

December 2, 2008 11:38 AM
 

Terrence T said:

Mike V...i didnt even hear that! are you serious! you cant really blame some of these atheletes and stars for takin the xtra measurement for safety! lets face it...its not like you and me carrying guns for safety. assuming you and me are not in any kinda lime light like these atheletes and stars. i guess they can be a lil over anxious and a lil scared at times. you cant trust anyone not even the body gaurds at times. i dont blame them

December 2, 2008 11:38 AM
 

Mike Force said:

What are you gonna hammer the bad guys with--words?

December 2, 2008 11:40 AM
 

fanfor55years said:

Wow, what is clearly discernible from the discussion of the last few days is that all shapes and sizes of people of broadly divergent political opinions can all come together in passionate love of the New York Football Giants. Given everything else happening in the world these days, we should all be grateful for the refuge this team, and this site, affords us.

And Jim's 15-1 is still alive!!!

December 2, 2008 11:45 AM
 

NYGs in AUS said:

From an outsider looking in, and not as a giants fan for a second, I can understand the press's responsibilites to be as critical and as out of proportion as possible to have people read articles, it also serves to send a message to the youth. Plax is an idiot. Carrying a gun is stupid and will carry an extreme punishment, but that mayor seems as thick as he is fair if he jumps down someones throat before a trial. Sure he can express his anger at carrying a gun etc but to pick out one person and say this man needs the full extent of the law, as if some others don't then he is causing friction and unnecessary judgements before a court can.

I really hope Plax does get special consideration, because he is a special consideration. He does need to be punished beacuse if he wanted protection, I'm sure he could hire a bodyguard, and his carrying of a loaded weapon is a terrible example to the youth, but the laws were made to prevent crime, and I don't believe throwing the book at him serves that purpose.

December 2, 2008 11:47 AM
 

The Original G Man said:

AP would have been better served had he left the gun at The Latin Quarter .... but taken the canoli instead.

December 2, 2008 11:47 AM
 

rich said:

lol

December 2, 2008 11:50 AM
 

xlaurax said:

I just want to give a heads up to the "honorable" Mike Bloomberg...Americas criminal justioce system is ALREADY a sham, a joke, a mockery. There are different standards of law for different levels of income and power. Apparently Mike's been living under a rock. Personally, I hope he gets the same punishment that we would afford to Mike himself...in other words, slap his wrist and let him walk.

December 2, 2008 11:50 AM
 

Mike V said:

Original G - hahaha, classic line.  Nicely done.

Terence - here's the story about Dunta Robinson.  Also, at the end of the story, you can click on the next athlete to read all of them.

sports.espn.go.com/.../story

Scary stuff man.

December 2, 2008 11:51 AM
 

The Real Bryan McCoy said:

Dan - one of the problems with your comparision, with all the comparisons to other players, really, is that you pretend that or ignore the fact that laws differ around the country.

If Plax commits his crime (and he broke the law, so its a crime) in Vegas, or the Poconos or 100 other places where guns and gun play aren't a concern, its probably not an issue, or not as much of an issue.

But NY has a gun problem.  Their response is to outlaw the carrying of UNLICENSED UNREGISTERED guns.  No one, not the NFL, not NY, is saying Plax can't protect himself.  No one is saying he can't carry a gun.  They are saying that to carry, you must fill out form X so that only criminals are carrying guns and we use this law against them.  He didn't follow the rules, as he hasn't been following the rules for his entire tenure as a Giant.  He just finally had a really bad outcome.

December 2, 2008 11:53 AM
 

NYGs in AUS said:

I agree about outlawing guns entirely, but americas perceived love of the gun isn't something that is about to go away.

In Australia it took a terrible incident at Port Arthur for gun laws to be changed (australia had a similar love of guns) and it has been extremely beneficial - every gun was bought by the government and destroyed unless you wanted to apply for a license, which is very hard to justify. Tthe statistics for gun crime has dramatically fallen over the past ten years because guns are so so hard to come by. Now I don't think this plax problem will change any laws, and it is good to see NY with such strong laws, but why doesn't the rest of the country follow them?

over in the UK cops don't even carry guns....

December 2, 2008 11:54 AM
 

NYGs in AUS said:

sorry I shouldn't get too political on here, I'm back to being a giants fan hoping dallas missed the playoffs.

December 2, 2008 11:55 AM
 

The Real Bryan McCoy said:

Plax is in trouble, not because the NFL is going to kick him out or suspend him for life, but because, in NY, his crime requires a 3 year sentence, and he has a number of charges against him.  Its the law that threatens his career, not the NFL.  

Complaining about Pac Man is almost irrelevant.  I doubt the NFL wouldn't give Plax more chances than Pac Man.  But complaining that Vegas' laws differ from NY laws is just silly.  Two different places, two different value systems.  Two different solutions.

Now, I think Pac Man should come under harsher penalties, both from the NFL and the law, but that doesn't mean Plax should walk.

December 2, 2008 11:57 AM
 

The Real Bryan McCoy said:

NYG's - outlawing guns will never happen.  You obviously haven't heard of the Heller case, where the Supreme Court said reasonable controls on guns are OK, but that citizens have a 2nd amendment right to own reasonable firearms.

Supreme Court case controls the entire nation and pretty much eliminated any chance of what your propose, at least for 40 years.  And the SC ruling followed a number of circuit courts that had found the same way.

December 2, 2008 11:59 AM
 

fanfor55years said:

So speaking of Dallas, what has to happen for them to miss the playoffs? I haven't been following the wild card race so don't really know.

I assume they're in big trouble if they lose to the Steelers and then we beat them in Dallas, but could they still sneak in with a 10-6 record? What would have to happen for them to miss out (an outcome that would make all of us quite happy)? If they beat the Steelers are they in good shape?

I'm sure someone on this site knows all the ins-and-outs of the playoff picture. Please fill us in.

December 2, 2008 12:03 PM
 

The Real Bryan McCoy said:

And Dan, presenting 5 cases or 6 cases or 10 cases where a sports star is robbed is fine and nice and great.  But it happens to 100s, literally 100s or 1,000s of people every day WHO AREN'T sports stars.

Yes, sports stars are more recognizable.  But if you aren't flauting $1,000, aren't wearing real expensive jewelry, guess what, you aren't as likely a target.  Most of these guys get VIP areas so they dont' even have to mingle with commoners.  They can party wti hthe rich and elite, go to their limo and go home.  Are they at risk, sure, but who isn't?  Commoners get mugged all the time.

December 2, 2008 12:05 PM
 

NYGs in AUS said:

I do know the amendment, and I know it wont happen, certainly not after this plax incident when it doesn't happen after several school/college massacres. But personally and this is just my opinion from someone who has visited the states but doesn't live there - they should be banned. I hate that fat mike whoever but bowling for columbine had some powerful stats on gun crime in the US.

December 2, 2008 12:07 PM
 

Mike V said:

FF55 - we need Atlanta and Carolina to basically win out.  If Dallas goes worse than 2-2 (which is certainly not out of the question), I think they are toast.  Especially since they have the hardest sked.  Right now they are 8-4 and on the outside looking in, with the aforementioned Carolina (9-3) and Atlanta (8-4) being ahead of them.

And if they do go 2-2, it would be best if they lost to us and the Eagles, thus worsening their divisional record and their conference record, against teams like Atlanta and Carolina.

And it would be great if they lost to the Steelers, but even if they beat Pittsburgh, it's not the worst thing.

December 2, 2008 12:08 PM
 

The Real Bryan McCoy said:

NYG's Michael Moore is an artist at twisting stats, and you should know that his works are more propaganda than documentary.  He often cherry picks stats.

And for every anti-gun stat you can put out there, I can put a pro-gun stat out.

December 2, 2008 12:09 PM
 

Terrence T said:

Mike...man that is some crazy stuff! you cant blame these guys...but sad to say a lot of people i feel see a black athelete with tatoos and gotees with a gun asume rite from the jump that they are thugs or in some gang.... notta good thing

December 2, 2008 12:09 PM
 

rich said:

terrence, some people have jobs in law enforcement and actually have facts to back up what they state.

December 2, 2008 12:13 PM
 

NYGs in AUS said:

Its quite hard to start giving the ins and outs but essentially if carolina win 2 more - we could help with one if we wanted -  andTampa wins one more, It will most liekly be a race between atlanta, and dallas (unless washington or chicago or someone has a streak and atlanta and dallas flop)

Now if dallas loses to pit and us. and atl beats st louis or min. Atlanta just has to win one of TB or NO assuming Dallas wins its other two games against phi and balt.

getting the picture?

December 2, 2008 12:14 PM
 

fanfor55years said:

My last comment on this thread about the "Plax and guns" deal.

Bryan, I don't think many are arguing that Plax should be "let off" and not pay a price for violating the law. What I, and many others, are saying is that the penalty should be something other than a 3 1/2 year mandatory sentence and that justice is not served by that outcome. There are ways to avoid it and I hope you are not suggesting a simple "If he did the crime he does the time" approach because that only makes sense if you also think that Joe Bruno and Eliot Spitzer should both now be in prison, that Dick Fuld is headed toward a lengthy sentence, and that Hank Greenberg should never see the light of day again.

NYG in Australia, the reason there will never be a banning of guns in this country is that a majority of people are against that, to say nothing of the Constitutional protection afforded guns. There is a very long tradition of the American people being concerned that any government might become tyrannical, and that they are fully entitled to overthrow such government so can never allow the government a complete monopoly on force. Frankly, in the current era there are much more effective ways to try to topple a government than taking handguns and rifles out into the street to face off against the National Guard and, if necessary, the Army and Air Force. But that's a story for another day.

I'd still like to know how to get the Cowboys out of the playoffs even if they beat the Steelers this week.

December 2, 2008 12:20 PM
 

The Original G Man said:

I think I need somebody with a PhD in Sportsology to explain to me:

1) The NFL playoff possibilities

2) Why Oklahoma might play in the BCS Championship Game.

December 2, 2008 12:20 PM
 

Dan Benton said:

Bryan McCoy - You're going a little too political with this.

I realize laws are different elsewhere, but my comparisons are legitimate.  Murder is murder in every state and Plax is facing more time than Lewis.

And I have not said once that Plax SHOULDN'T be punished. In fact, I said he should be. But it's unjustifiable to punish him more harshly than all the other names mentioned.

As far as "flaunting" their money and stuff around, that's not really for anyone to say is right or wrong. They've worked hard to earn that and they deserve the right to do that if they so choose. No one should judge that.

I work my ass off and I live as big a life as I can because I feel I've earned it. Does that make me more of a target? Yes. But does that make it justifiable to rob me? No. And does it make a potentially robbery my fault? No.

And in your final statement, you said "for every pro-gun argument you have, I have an anti-gun argument."

That may be, but what does it tell you? It tells you it's a wash and in the end, our constitution states we have the right to bear (legally) arms ... to me, that's the end of the story.

December 2, 2008 12:21 PM
 

Dan Benton said:

Fanof55 - Well said, man. That's basically what I was trying to say.

December 2, 2008 12:21 PM
 

fanfor55years said:

Mike V and NYG, thanks. I'm a bit slow on this stuff. So are we rooting for the Steelers and the Falcons this weekend? The first is obvious, but what about the second?

December 2, 2008 12:24 PM
 

Mike V said:

FF55 - not only are we rooting for Atlanta because it's bad for Dallas, we are also rooting Atlanta because they are playing the Saints.  I think right now, with the exception of when the Giants play the Panthers in Week 16, we want the NFC South (save the Saints) to win as many games as possible.  I know Tampa plays Carolina on MNF next week, but we need as many wins from the NFC South as possible.

December 2, 2008 12:26 PM
 

fanfor55years said:

Original G, another classic. Sportsology. I think that's what my wife would like to give me when I insist I not be disturbed on Sundays.

And what are the chances the Governor of Texas is getting ready to call on the Texas Rangers (the real ones...noit the baseball team) to invade Norman and put the Sooners under arrest for impersonating a champion?

December 2, 2008 12:28 PM
 

bearcat said:

I'd agree with Rich that the "right to protection" absolves people from censure about gunplay.  I come back to a point I made a few threads ago that the team and the league, need to be more proactive about discouraging if not outright restricting gun possession in public by their players.  I don't deny that these guys are often targeted because of their wealth and the prospect that some punk will want fifteen seconds of fame getting into a tussle with a pro athelete.  

But I think condoning the possession of concealed weapons by pro atheletes rachets up the risk that something terrible is going to happen.  Let's face it, a lot of these guys are super-aggessive A-types, many with little education and, alas, too many with poor socialization.  Perhaps most important, they are mostly in their 20s and pretty darn immature.  Like most people in their age group, they are also likely to impair their judgment drinking or otherwise getting high.  In a volitile situation, say a dispute over a girl in a nightclub, or a surly exchange with someone, hell even an unwanted advance by a homosexual, far too many of these guys are capable of lapsing into a violent over-reaction.  Having guns in the mix is just a recipe for tragedy.

I note that during Sunday's Fox panel discussion of the Burress situation, our Michael Strahan said that at Giants camp, the team requires any players who have guns to check them in.   That tells me a couple of things.  Obviously the team recognizes that some of they guys pack weapons.  But more important, it tells me that the Giants at least don't buy into the "need it for my protection" philosophy.   I think the Giants are right.  Apparently, however, the proscription doesn't apply after camp breaks.  In my opinion it should.  In my opinion it should be a league-wide rule against carrying concealed weapons, at least during the season.

I think the risk that the weapons' use will lead to some sort of tragedy (as it did in the Burress case--if not a physical tragedy, certainly we see the potential of a career tragedy) greatly outweighs the protection the player's think they are getting by carrying guns.

An additional element is that these people are role models.  The NFL wants them to be role models.  Their teams want them to be role models.  And many of the players relish being role models.  I think it sets a pathetic image (much like gangsta rappers) to have athletes and frankly any celebrity packing weapons.  (BTW: I admire and respect rap, one of the most of the most awesome American artistic creations since jazz.  I just grimace to see the art perverted with gratuitous attitudes toward violence.)

The time-honored solution for protecting celebrities is to hire body guards.  I know they can be thugs and a-hole, too.  However, I think the league could somehow set up a screening criteria for contracting of body-guard services.  (I wouldn't leave it to individual teams. Philly would hire the Mob; Dallas would hire a Mexican drug cartel).  With the NFL's brand attached to the program, I am confident they can find body-guard services that screen out unsavory body-guard services.  Maybe they don't bat 1000, either, but I take the odds on that system over the cavalier notion that twenty-something-year-old football players should be condoned in carrying concealed weapons in public places.

Having said all that, I don't think Burress should be crucified.  I think jail time would compound the tragedy.  I think ending his career would be needlessly cruel.  I believe the Giants are too classy to cut him off, and I don't expect that to happen.  

December 2, 2008 12:30 PM
 

The Real Bryan McCoy said:

Dan - your talking to a big gun rights guy, so you won't get an argument from me on that point.  Having said that ...

"it's unjustifiable to punish him more harshly than all the other names mentioned."

That's true, then, of every person who gets a mandatory 3-year sentence under this law but doesn't in Vegas, Pennsylvania, NJ., Va., Ga., Tenn., et al.

The names you mentioned ARE irrelevant.  If you want to say the law is wrong and mandatory sentencing is a joke, OK.  But the fact is that NY decided to handle gun crime this way.  The fact is that Mr. X is in prison RIGHT NOW on this exact charge, while Mr. Y is free for doing the same thing in Virginia.  That's state regulation.  You may not like that you can't talk on your cell phone in some jurisdictions while you can in others, that doesn't make the law wrong.

December 2, 2008 12:32 PM
 

DEMO3356 said:

Bryan-great points, agree 100%

FF57Yrs-The herd did  great analysis of Dallas Playoff hopes. I will try to find it. Basically he said due to the easy schedules of Tampa, Carolina and ATL, that Dalls HAS to go 3-1 to make the playoffs. So if Pittsburg beats them this week, we can put the final nail in next week

December 2, 2008 12:32 PM
 

Kyle Langan said:

Yeah Carolina is a full game up on dallas right now, but TB loses the tiebreaker with Dal, so we want TB to win on monday night and basically wrap up the division. The issue is that we play Carolina. They need to go 2-2 down the stretch, which is entirely possible. Atlanta needs to win out... But the key is dallas going 2-2 down the stretch. If that happens they will be hard pressed to get in.... All the assumptions are based on the fact that Dallas will go 2-2... I hope they do to be honest....

December 2, 2008 12:33 PM
 

Terrence T said:

rich...what you gettin at?

December 2, 2008 12:33 PM
 

Kyle Langan said:

As Giant fans, rather that politicians, how do you guys see any of this mess affecting the Giants. It could add to the already great story, with the emergence of another nobody (Hixon) or we could let it ruin us. I cant see the Giants being THAT affected by it... Especially after this week. I think AP will be fine and he and Eli will carry us in this final stretch.

You guys see this as a chapter in the story or the end of it?

December 2, 2008 12:37 PM
 

Dan Benton said:

Bryan - I am not disagreeing with you about differing gun laws in NY and other states. What I am saying is that murder is still murder in each state, and how is it that Plax will likely server more time than Ray Lewis? OJ Simpson?

Yes, I am comparing different crimes in different states, but that doesn't make any of it right.

Plax, under no circumstances, deserves to serve more time than any of those other names.

And I also apologize for misreading your previous comment.

December 2, 2008 12:37 PM